266. Founder-Led vs. Product-Led Growth: how to pick the right path for your startup

Most founders dream of creating a product so good it sells itself.

That’s the promise of product-led growth: customers discover, share, and adopt your product with little to no sales effort.

Sadly that's rarely the reality.

In the early stages, almost every founder has to do the hard, unglamorous work of founder-led growth: building trust, making offers and facing rejection.

In this episode, you will learn from Vijay Rajendran, author of The Funding Framework: Secure Startup Funding With Confidence.

Vijay previously led portfolio value at 500 Global, a venture capital firm with $2.7 billion under management, where he supported startups in more than 80 countries. 

Vijay has helped hundreds of founders grow, scale, and raise capital. 

Listen to learn:

• The difference between founder-led and product-led growth — and when each approach works best.

• How design partnerships and pilots can win your first customers (and even get them to fund product development).

• Why “influence” is a better mindset than “sales” — and how listening to customers creates trust.

• Stories from Airbnb to enterprise startups that reveal what growth really looks like behind the scenes.

Whether you’re launching your first product, leading innovation inside a corporate, or backing founders as an investor, this episode is for you.

Resources mentioned in this episode:

• Influence: The Psychology of Persuasion, Robert Cialdini
• Never Split the Difference: Negotiating as if Your Life Depended on It, Chris Voss

Chapters

05:24 — The seductive dream of product-led growth (and why it rarely works early on)

07:52 — Design partnerships: how customers can fund your product

13:39 — The Airbnb toilet photos story: why every founder must talk to customers

18:55 — Stop pitching, start listening: turning sales into influence

23:23 — Empathy and persuasion: the human skills behind tech success

28:48 — When to move from founder-led growth to a professional sales team

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Transcript

Speaker 2 - Vijay Rajendarn (00:00.046)
Founder-led growth takes a few different steps. So it can start with a design partnership at the beginning. What's design partnership? So a design partnership is where you have perhaps a half-baked idea of a product, but you want to create something that will be enterprise ready and suitable for the needs of a particular customer.

the Tech for Techies podcast. I'm your host, tech entrepreneur, executive coach at Chicago Booth MBA, Sophia Matilda. My aim here is to help you have a great career in the digital age. In a time when even your coffee shop has an app, you simply have to speak tech.

On this podcast, I share core technology concepts, help you relate them to business outcomes, and most importantly, share practical advice on what you can do to become a digital leader today. If you want to a great career in the digital age, this podcast is for you. Hello, smart people. How are you today? In this episode, we are building on what we learned last week.

So in last week's episode, you heard from Robin Exston, the founder of Her, a dating app which is now used by millions. And you heard about how she went to nightclubs and got people to download her app in exchange for a shot of vodka. So this humble and quite fun beginning led to a global business. And this is an example of what's founder-led growth. And if you haven't yet listened to last week's episode, then you have to because it is really interesting.

Anyway, this week we are building on that theme with somebody who has spent decades helping founders grow their businesses. My guest today is Vijay Rajendran, a Silicon Valley venture builder, investor and founder coach. Vijay has led Portfolio Value at 500 Global and that's VC firm with over 2.7 billion under management. And he's also the author of the funding framework, Secure Startup Funding with Confidence. In this conversation.

Speaker 1 - Sophia Matveeva (02:04.706)
Vijay explains the two main ways that startups grow. it's founder led growth that we just talked about and product led growth. And both of these approaches can work really, really well. But if you pick the wrong one at the wrong time, then you can ruin your own chances of success before you even get going. So whether you're launching a startup or innovating inside a corporate, or if you're backing founders as an investor,

This episode is going to be super useful for you. And as always, if you are getting value from these episodes, then give me some value back. I would love to hear from you. So please leave this show a rating and review wherever you get your podcast. And now let's learn from Vijay. So let's just start with the definitions. What is product lead growth versus founder lead growth?

So product-led growth is of course where the product itself has features in it and the way that you reach out to customers is where they started trying, experiencing, using your product, they get more familiar with it and then they come to a longer trial or starting to subscribe or purchase the product directly. And so what this noticeably doesn't have

is a feature of individual cell.

So is that, let's just think of an example. Is that when, you know, maybe I have a consumer app and I'm pushing it out to people via Facebook advertising. And so I'm sitting there behind a computer, having, you know, not speaking to any of my users, not having to do any of that work, paying Mark Zuckerberg, helping him get more rich. And then people try my product, download it, and then I get to see the analytics. Is that an example of product led growth?

Speaker 2 (03:57.346)
Yeah. So sometimes advertising can be part of product led growth. Also, you know, another example is when you're using a product like DocuSign for example, and you pass that document onto someone else for their signature. Now a new person signs up as a user of DocuSign or separately if it is a messaging service and I invite you to it, right? You're creating cycles by which.

your users will start to use the product and share it with others. there's various-

Anyway, the network of sorry to interrupt, but I wanted to make sure that we have the definition anywhere with a network effect is product led growth. A network effect is basically when something becomes more valuable, the more people are on it. So if I'm the only person with a telephone, it's, mean, maybe I can use it as a weapon or a doorstop, but it becomes more and more useful the more people have telephones. And so that's product led growth. Now this sounds wonderful, I think to many people who don't want to go out.

the marketplace and say, look, here is my invention. And then the marketplace says, well, this is a bunch of rubbish. I would never pay for this, which has certainly happened to me many times. So product-led growth just sounds wonderful. You get rejected, but not straight to your face.

Yeah.

Speaker 2 (05:24.802)
Yeah, exactly. It feels a bit more anonymous there, right? And that is very tempting for people who are uncomfortable talking to customers. They want the very seductive idea of something just launching and making money while you seek, right? That's got to be the best.

I mean that's the dream.

And it can happen, but only after many, many, many experiments, right? Which it goes back to those early days of trying a lot of things out and being really flexible on the tactics because your, is pure product led growth where people discover and try the product and tell people else about it. But there are, you know, there can be many other tactics you, you try, which could be event based growth.

It could be something where you are developing this particular content and so that's a content led strategy, right? So there's a spectrum of things, but usually, yes, what people want is to do it without having to engage directly in the customer. The trouble with that is there has to be an aspect of trust that is built between you and the customer. Certainly in the case of a B2B or enterprise sale,

But even as a consumer, we want to see that there is social proof or that there's authority in the person who has created this product or the entity that is introduced into our lives. so that's really important for people to be able to see. And if you can't directly show that, then it may be that this trust has to be built through a founder led sale.

Speaker 1 (07:04.086)
And a founder led sale is basically the founder, the innovator going out and telling people, I have created this thing. This is going to help you solve this particular problem. Would you like to try it? Would you like to pay me for it? Is that basically founder led growth?

Yeah. Founder-led growth takes a few different steps. So it can start with a design partnership at the beginning. It later can look like a... What's a design? okay. So a design partnership is where you have perhaps a half-baked idea of a product, but you want to create something that will be enterprise ready and suitable for the needs of a particular customer. And so that might be a large company that would be two things. One, able to show your solution.

Thank partnership.

Speaker 2 (07:52.692)
fulfills its promise and then to be able to form a good case study, right? To say, hey, we launched this with big bank or a hospital or whatever. And, and it looks like it's fulfilling that promise. And so usually internally they are struggling with something, this particular pain point that they may have and that they want to, to address, but they don't have the tools and means or the sometimes even the budget to just pull this together themselves.

to interject here because I was thinking about one of our students who actually did that very thing and she created a product with the customer, but she also cleverly got the customer to fund the product. And so by the end of the year, not only did she actually have revenue, but she also

Did you have revenue from a customer in a great case study? That customer was her investor. So that basically looked really, really good to the rest of the industry. And that's really a case study of how to do this well, because she had an idea for an AI solution and she knew how to build that. And she was speaking to clinics basically in the healthcare space in the US.

You know, I didn't want to say they're not tech savvy because, know, if they're doctors, obviously they are, but not the technology that we talk about here. And so they said, well, we, you know, yes, we have these problems. You are welcome to come and build this solution with us. We'll give you our notes. We'll give you our doctor's notes. You can train this thing on our records. And so she, I mean, she's one of my favorite case studies of basically how you can have your cake and eat it because she got, she got the revenue.

She got the investment and that's like smart money. It's basically much better to have money from a customer than a VC because it really signals something useful. the industry is interested in this. This could be a strategic acquisition at some point. And also she got the data that she needed for her AI company. So I wanted to show that founder led growth can really work because in order for this to happen,

Speaker 1 (10:06.73)
she needed to go through so much relationship building, so many meetings about meetings, so much frustration, you know, just because it's dealing with people.

Yes. It's a lot of dealing with people. And I'm sure in those meetings and all that frustration, there was a lot of telegraphing, hey, this is what we do. This is why it matters. Here's who's a part of it. And here's what comes next. And I need your commitment. And we need to do this next step and remind people again, because they're running around doing their day jobs. And this could seem like a sort of science project on the side, know, and something that is in core to what they have, even though it's everything to you as a founder.

And so it's really important to over communicate and create a great rhythm for creating momentum and buy in for your product, even if it's in a design partnership, but particularly if it's in a proof of concept or a pilot and you want everyone to sort of nod their head and approve it going from there into a commercial agreement.

So you mentioned that design partnership is one aspect of founder led growth. What other ways can founders do that?

Yeah. Again, at the very early stage, a proof of concept is one option and a pilot is another. There's a difference between the two. Generally a proof of concept is when you are doing something with internal data versus a pilot where you're trialing something in front of the customers. And that means, you know, with the pilot, there's more risk because something is out there in the wild and your customers are engaging with it.

Speaker 2 (11:47.156)
But the proof of it, but whether it's a proof of concept or a pilot, you want to be very, very specific about what the hypothesis is. Like we need to show that this reduces the amount of fraud in our system, or perhaps that what we do can increase like engagement or the number of times people check in and use our service.

you be really careful about the scope and there's a radically tighter bounded as you can in order to like come back later and say our proof of concept worked or didn't work like this was a validation of the product and this solution works. Let's take it to the next level.

And, you know, my advice would be also create a pilot where you know you can win because, you know, if it's going to be with a customer, I mean, if it's for you, if it's just your internal testing, you're doing R &D, you know, lots of things are going to fail. That's fine. But when you're getting potential customers involved, even when you, even when you say to them, that's a pilot and you say all of these things, they

are still, especially if they're not from the same kind of tech innovation world as you, they are still going to be looking for, okay, is this thing going to work? Like, does it actually do the thing? Even though it's your first time. So my advice would be be experimental, but be fairly sure that you can hit that thing. You you can say, okay, we will reduce, I don't know, customer waiting times by

15%. You actually think maybe you could reduce it by 30%, but let them be pleasantly surprised. 15 % and then go, look at it, doubled it.

Speaker 2 (13:39.729)
absolutely.

Speaker 2 (13:44.014)
Absolutely. It's it's a great point. want to under promise and over deliver. And that is in the results or how much you sort of move the, the KPI, but it's also in another area. You want to show people in terms of time. wow. This took like less time and effort. You want to make sure people also see, this was surprisingly less risk than we thought. Like, cause going into it, people are catastrophizing and they are

imagining, oh yeah, we're going to leak out this data and this isn't going to work and then we'll suffer reputational damage of some kind. I think that is another relevant concern if you're a big company who is playing to not lose. But important that you reflect back and be like, okay, yeah, this wasn't as bad in those dimensions from a risk perspective as

people might have a disf-

So in my experience, you know, as an entrepreneur myself, but also now having had lots and lots of students go through our courses, nobody wants to do founder led growth, nobody. And I always tell people at the beginning, even if you're doing a consumer thing, which will be marketed through Facebook eventually, because, know, consumer apps, that's, they get most of their users through advertising. If they add the beginning.

You have to speak to people. have to physically be with them when they download your thing. And you you have to get feedback. And you also actually have to go and say like, this is why we think it's good. This is why we think it's going to help you. And nobody wants to do that. When I, when we set that as a homework in our programs, people say, yeah, yeah, but I don't need to do this because I'm going to hire salespeople. I don't need to do this because we're going to do the advertising or, know, my cousin runs a PR firm. Can they just do an article about that?

Speaker 1 (15:42.286)
any kind of creative excuse not to do this because nobody wants to go and get rejected. And I totally get it. I totally get it.

So, tell me what changes their minds.

Well, when it comes to our programs, first of all, they will fail if they don't do it. So there is that. But to be honest, yes, I'm very proud of our certifications, but we are not an accredited university. it's not, I think what really matters to people, like what I really drive home to them is that this is the only way to do it. And when they don't believe me, I give them examples of when

people who are now rich, famous and successful have done it. And one of my best, one of my most frequent examples is the Airbnb people. They're Airbnb founders when they were going into hosts' homes and taking photos themselves. And I said, look, you know, there was Brian Chesky, he's now a billionaire, but when he started, he was taking photos of other people's toilets. And when he was doing that, he was...

basically finding out what's working with the platform, what they like, what they don't like, are they happy to recommend it to others? And I say, look, he took photos of toilets, so you can go and speak to some people about your app. Come on. And that usually gets some movement. Not enthusiasm, but action.

Speaker 2 (17:14.498)
Yeah. I mean, people don't remember, you know, Twitter launched at South by Southwest one year and they, showed up and they were just like creating buzz and like meeting people and. know, and it sounds kind of strange because this is social media site, right? Like why would you need to like push it in that way? But you want to not just do PR, but you want to connect with and see what people are doing and have.

a really strong idea of what your customers care about because ultimately you have to build something that addresses deep human needs.

So if we have now convinced people that product led growth, yes, that's a good thing, you can get to it, but frankly, it is a later stage thing, like pretty much no matter what you're doing. At the earlier stages, it has to be you going and speaking to people. So, you know, some people think, well, I'm a natural salesperson, okay, I'll figure it out. But there'll be a lot of other people who think, okay,

what, how on earth am I supposed to do this? So when, you know, when we're thinking somebody, somebody who's, know, you're thinking of non-technical founders for our audience, but non-technical founders can also be nerdy and shy, right? So to that person who thinks, you know, I am say a lawyer, I'm not usually a salesperson and I've got this idea. What am I supposed to, like, how am I supposed to do this kind of sales of my product?

What would you advise them? Like, what would you tell them to do so they can be successful at it?

Speaker 2 (18:55.15)
I would tell that lawyer to replace the word sales with influence. then you would then see everything you're doing at the beginning of your business where you're very little resources is a matter of influence. are, you're using techniques of persuasion to get someone to invest. are, you are. Impress upon people, the potential of what you're doing and the importance of what you're working on.

in order them to come on and join your team or help you in some way. And the same is true when you think about, I need to go and meet with a customer, not because I am trying to talk at them, but because it's really important for me to like hear them. And so the key thing that I tell people is you got to stop pitching and start listening. your customers are going to tell you

what they care about, they're going to use words that indicate what you should then be saying. So for example, if they're talking about, know, automation, if they're talking about how we have to cut costs, if they're talking about how they have to reduce risk in some way, like all of those things are very much indicators of they're looking for a painkiller, right?

That's not the same thing as if they're like looking at opening up a new market. If, you know, they are saying they need a solution where they can extend their reach into a new demographic segment, in which case they're looking for more vitamin. So I would say that where your customers have so much to share and you can learn so much from them that when you just let them do a lot of the talking.

It's very effective for you to learn and for you to be able to develop a solution, maybe through a design partnership or tailor the proof of concept to address the things that they really care about and that their boss cares about. And other people are going to need to see in order to build something that ultimately lands where you want it. So I would tell people that they don't have.

Speaker 2 (21:17.314)
the hard job of just showing up and delivering a pitch and then waiting for the other person to accept or reject, but rather to have this very important dialogue that is empathetic and is about as much listening as it is about sharing what it is you do and what you have to say.

I think that's actually quite a calming message because I think people often think, I have to go and sell and I have to go and, you know, do jazz hands and then say something really charismatic. And then I have to kind of make up this line that people think, yes, okay. Now that he said this, then I'm definitely going to use it. And like that, that never happens. And so if you actually say, people some questions about what they're doing and what the problems are.

Listen, that's actually something that I think most of us can do. And also frankly, it reminds me of dating advice, right? Because, know, if I've certainly been in situations where somebody speaks to me and they're just kind of just giving me their pitch and I think, hang on a second. didn't want, mean, well done for all of your accomplishments, but I don't really know you. I don't care. I don't want to know about this. Like you can send me your LinkedIn profile later.

Whereas the people who are memorable are the people who are interested in you. say, really? yes. tell me about your grandmother. And then you start talking about your grandmother and then maybe that person didn't even speak much, but you think, my God, they're such a great listener.

only if you listen do you get to hear about the thing that drives them crazy at work, about the unreasonable goals they have to hit and how they can't get there without a different approach, maybe using your new AI product or perhaps shifting to partner with an external company that can provide the service, whatever it is, right? You won't get there until you've developed this trust and that trust only happens when you're not self-centered.

Speaker 2 (23:23.084)
you are actually listening to the other person.

Isn't it so interesting that the success of a tech product, the success of a tech company ultimately depends on this very human therapeutic skill of listening to people and understanding them. And I think this is one of the things that people see as a theme across our shows that yes, there is some job and you need to learn. There are definitely some skills you need to learn, but actually things succeed or fail.

in the 21st century for the same reason they succeeded or failed in the 5th century, which is do people need it? Do people really actually have the problem? And also, frankly, do they like you? Because for example, sales of Tesla fell after Elon Musk got really involved with politics. So for some people that meant they wanted a Tesla, for other people it meant that they absolutely despised the Tesla that they already had.

You know, then is it good for a CEO to get involved in politics?

Yeah, exactly. There are that is very true. Like likeness is one of I think, Chial Dini's sort of principles of how we can be influenced and persuaded. Right. And every good salesperson, every good marketer like learns that or perhaps picks it up intuitively. But it's very important. think, you know, one of the

Speaker 1 (24:54.988)
Yeah. Robert Cialdini wrote a book called Influence and it's quite short. Yes. It's not long at all. And it's also very easy read. And honestly, I remember when I read it, at the time I was fundraising for my first company and I thought, well, I'm reading this book and I'm actually fundraising. So let me just do what he says on this particular investor to just, you know, as an experiment.

And I literally did what the book said in, you know, one of the lessons and it worked and the guy signed and I was like, my God, I have the superpowers. So everybody needs to read it.

What are the ones among the principles that he mentions in the book that stands out to you?

You know what, it's been a long time, but I think one of the things that struck with in my mind was social proof. So basically people want to do what people that they want to be like do. What I mean is, okay, if you see lots of people doing something, but you don't like them, you are from, I don't know, you don't like your siblings and they're all doing a particular thing. Okay. You are not going to do it.

But if there's a really cool person, somebody you kind of idolize, maybe like that really cool person at work, who is nice to you, but also they're just kind of a little bit removed because they're just a bit cooler. And then you see that, you know, they buy a particular brand or they're going somewhere on vacation. Like, okay, that's where I need to go to. And that I found has actually been very useful even in terms of growing Tech Fun on Techies because we now have

Speaker 1 (26:45.856)
some impressive clients, but getting more impressive clients became easier when the first ones signed up. remember once we got the University of Oxford and they started teaching our technical and non-technical founders course and we had a testimonial. It was very easy to then go to everybody else because you know, what are the educational institutions? Like every educational institution kind of wants to be like Oxford. And then.

things became much easier. But this is the thing with founder led sales, the first one is the hardest. And once you get a good first one, then things get easier. I don't think they ever get easy, but they get easy.

Yeah, but you need to crawl then walk then run. And that means before you get to the point where you see big companies say nine out of 10 dentists recommend using this toothpaste or 80 % of the Fortune 500 runs on our cloud service, right? And before you get there, you've got to say, well, you know, this person had such and such an experience, right? You tell a story, you present a case study.

That could be your design partnership. could be an experience that consumers have with your product. And those first test consumers in your beta release have wonderful testimonials to share. That can be enough to create the momentum you need.

Would it be accurate to say that consumer companies, not when they're at the super early stages, but once they get a bit more mature, consumer companies are product led growth. Because I don't know who runs Coca Cola, but I still like we buy Coca Cola because we know what it is and so on. Whereas enterprise companies B2B, that's generally founder led growth or even when

Speaker 1 (28:48.59)
Even when the company gets really, really big, okay, the founder's doing probably the biggest deals. I'm sure Satya Nadella is signing some of the deals, but then there's also a very senior sales team. So it's not so much product, it's more people. Is that-

Yeah, I think through Seed, you really depend on founder-led sales. The reason is that you as a founder know the product really well and you've experienced it all the way that until you get to a repeatable sales motion and it could be that you switch sales motions at some point, maybe you started out product-led and then you realize, we need to run events or you realize content and education is really important. It might be a mix of different go-to-market motions.

that you've employed, that's all fine. But you, you, you've kind of experienced it along the way and you kind of own the sales function until you get to maturity where you can bring in, external experienced salespeople who need you to either co-create or provide them with some kind of playbook. At that point, then you can develop a sales organization, have sales managers that manage other, let's say account executives or whatever. So that.

they're able to go out and rinse and repeat. Because until you have that repeatable cycle of, we call on this customer, they renew their contract, they're reporting this kind of NPS score and our customer success team has done these things up to this point. And you know that's what it takes to then drop in and renew or expand the contract value. Then you're not ready to build out a sales organization.

There is a moment, it's somewhere between Seed and Series A where you've hit on a product market fit that you would move from founder led to sales team or revenue leader led sales.

Speaker 1 (30:47.992)
You know, this reminds me of that Silicon Valley episode. don't know. I'm sure you must have, you're a venture capitalist in Silicon Valley. You must have watched it. You know, when they get the professional sales team and it's just a complete disaster because the product is changing, the sale, the, you know, the original founders were actually making the product. They don't know or they like, they're afraid of the sales team and it's just, it's just such an example. think actually.

That's a great episode. I'm so glad you mentioned that because yeah, it just goes to show like what a professional sales team coming out of a larger enterprise wants to do is to just like go out there and run through their med pick and listen to the customer and figure out what to do and then like introduce the sale in a particular way and usually do what made them successful somewhere else. So when you bring in a sales leader and maybe they come from a

great big tech company, depending on the seniority level and the kinds of experiences they have, they may want to just say, bring the playbook from their old company, which may not be what you need, right? Like you're going to push against that. that's why providing a playbook and letting it build out. And then eventually at some point when you realize, okay, we need something that looks like what exists at a gigantic tech company instead of.

what we've kind of organically, then that senior leader can come in. But every time I've talked to a founder or a startup leader in some way, and they talk about how, yes, we have a new chief revenue officer. I know there's six months at least of disruption and friction as they say, well, you know, when I was at ABC company or XYZ company, this is how we did it. I, you know, I want everyone to do it this way. Right. And so you end up.

pulling people to retrain and like do the staying inside. This is the formula we use or okay, no, we need to be recording these calls and then analyzing them this way. And I really like generating these types of lists. Right there are these, these, these approaches that are part of the discipline that that person has, but you know, you are importing all those habits along with that individual and, they're, they're, they're CV and talent. When you, sign up to then sort of quote unquote, professionalize your, your sales.

Speaker 1 (33:17.23)
And you know, also, this is a really good reminder to everybody that if you want to learn about tech, it's not just, you know, doing boring stuff. I'm hoping that this isn't boring. But like, I used to watch Silicon Valley, literally on my Friday nights. Sometimes I was like, no, this is actually reminds me of work too much. So I wouldn't. But there are all sorts of ways to learn about what to do and equally what not to do.

in entertaining ways, not only from reading business books. So my last question to you is, is there a book, a fun book, or a series or a movie, not telecom value because we're talking about that, that you would recommend to people who want to learn about making products, who want to learn about tech, but it's summer, maybe they don't want to read a big heavy book right now.

Okay. Well, one book that I would suggest to your audience is the funding framework, which I published in March. It is about raising money, but you don't need to be conversant in finance to pick it up and read it and get a lot of value out of it. So I think that that is one that possibly addresses that question. would say another book that I think that

Add that to the show notes.

Speaker 2 (34:43.154)
is non-technical that can help and is tied into what we've been talking about in terms of listening and being empathetic and understanding the other side is a great book called Never Split the Difference by Chris Long.

love that. Yes. I love him as well.

He's great. Yeah. And I highly recommend it to all the founders that I coach and to people that I meet because I think it is very valuable no matter who you are and whether you're a FBI hostage negotiator like Chris is or just somebody who's looking to create new value, new opportunities in business and in your personal life too.

Yeah, because you know, sometimes negotiating with my family feels like I'm a hostage negotiator. It's very useful. Well, thank you so much, Vijay. So we will put all of these links in the show notes. And if people want to hear more from you, so if they want to learn more from you, they can get your book. What else could they do? Should they follow you on LinkedIn?

Yes, can follow me on LinkedIn. I also have a sub stack called Startup System where I share a lot of ideas, observations, and things that are happening in the market.

Speaker 1: Sophia Matveeva (36:01.23)
Awesome. Great. We'll add all of that into the show notes. Thank you so much. It's been a pleasure having you on the Tech for Non-Techies show.

Super fun, thank you.